WAH LAU!!!!!
Of the 30-40 comments, only a few people, e.g. Mooiness, got what I was trying to say in my "I am not a Chinese Prude" entry.
Mooiness sums it up very nicely:
I think what BM wanted to convey in the first post was that if you had the chance to learn Chinese, learn it well and keep up with it so as not to waste it. Even if it's by reading "simple" stuff like her Chinese entries here which I do. I also watch Chinese movies and Taiwanese TV shows and I'm in Australia so it's definitely a bigger effort for me.
She definitely did not put down those, whom for various reasons never got to learn it. And her point in *this* post was that snobbishness on both sides are to be discouraged.
Last thoughts on this matter: language is one thing and inner values are another. You don't have to speak Mandarin to still be a "Chinese", and vice-versa just because you speak Mandarin doesn't mean you are a true "Chinese".
Perhaps it really takes someone from the outside to point out something so simple to all inside. (Mooiness is a Malaysian Chinese living in Australia.)
I saw an ang moh ah pek (like in his sixties) reading a book call "Chinese for Today" and making notes and stuff yesterday.
He has to learn from scratch and hopefully immersed himself in an environment which faciliates his learning of the Chinese language to become proficient.
It's just seems so wasteful for those who went through 10-12 years of Chinese lessons (at highly subsidised rates somemore!) to not be able to read something as simple as my blog entries.
=_=
Seriously, the type of comments... got me worried.
Firstly, I avoided using terms like 'chauvinism' and 'ethnocentric' to minimise misunderstandings, because not everybody is familiar with such terms.
Still, some just cannot follow my line of argument, not to mention display any minute signs of comprehension. =_=
Secondly, the display of sense of pride evoked by being a Chinese is mindless.
What exactly is a 'Chinese'?
One which speaks the Chinese language?
One which subscribes to Confucian values?
One who does both of the above?
So, supposing X was born in Singapore to a Chinese family, schooled in the US, moved back to Singapore but worked in London most of the time, ate Macdonald's and herbal soups, drank Hoegaarden and European wines, spoke Hokkien-accented Mandarin and American-accented English, listened to Teresa Teng, Marilyn Manson and Ayumi Hamasaki, preferred a subservient Chinese wife who cooked and peeled prawns, slapped his kids, maintained his parents etc.
Is X a Chinese?
Which part of the above makes him as a Chinese?
Who is the 'authentic Chinese'?
Are mainland Chinese more 'authentic' than overseas Chinese?
Race is merely a method of categorisation.
As with any system, categories are created to achieve certain objectives.
At the individual level, it should not make such huge, or worse still, personal differences.
我不是香蕉
不过
若你想叫我香蕉
我也不会介意
做人
非凭肤色头衔
是讲心的啊！
做人
你行吗？
你敢吗？
Friday, September 09, 2005
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25 comments:
Hey BM, you've almost described X as me except for the working in London (worked everywhere else but there, probably the next place I'd like to try), music taste and kid slapping bits. What am I? Chinese? DAMN RIGHT I am.
U-turn!!!!!
For BM:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4225978.stm
BM, the more you explain the worse it could become. The number of comments could explode exponentially. You could be having one billion hits pretty soon. ;-p You're blog will become more famous than Google. Is that your hidden agenda? hahaa...
做人need one guy and one ger in a deserted hut during a thunder storm.....
I am born in Singapore to a Chinese family, schooled in the Singapore, worked in Singapore all of my time, ate Macdonald's and herbal soups, drank Hoegaarden and European wines, spoke Hokkien-accented Mandarin and American-accented English, listened to Teresa Teng, Marilyn Manson and Ayumi Hamasaki, preferred a subservient Chinese wife who cooked and peeled prawns, yet with Western thinking, will punish my kids,prob maintained my parents etc.
Am I a Chinese?
Which part of the above makes me a Chinese?
Prob my heritage.. *shrugs* its just to put homo sapiens in groups, to catergories them.
:)
"What exactly is a 'Chinese'?" - like you, i've often questioned the categorical boundaries. How they are formed, whether they are real or imagined etc. My problem always has been that it becomes a slippery slope.
Can I therefore claim to be proud that I am Singaporean? What *is* a Singaporean? Can I be proud to be myself? What constitutes "me"? Is my personality truly something that I can call my own, or am I merely a product of social circumstances? The questions are important. And I ask them all the time, because it is important not to take for granted existing paradigms. Nevertheless it is problematic and tiring, and I empathise why people often suspend all queries and accept things as-such.
"if you had the chance to learn Chinese, learn it well and keep up with it so as not to waste it" - I agree it seems like a waste, but we could say the same of other things we've had the opportunity to learn. algebra? geography? art classes? french?
I believe most of us, have not been able to fully keep up with every single thing that we were given the opportunity to learn. The question is, why then, is one particular subject more significantly considered a waste (to yourself and many others) not to pursue, than another? :)
Lets expand this a little bit....What exactly is an Indian, or better yet a Malay? Different from being identified as "Chinese", being a Malay is a big deal.
Here in Malaysia, being a Malay entitles you to a host of privileges. You get to buy property and houses at a discount, you get to engage in professions that other races cannot (eg get Approval Permit to import cars), you get special scholarships,if you are good, you can even be the Prime Minister. You and your company get to bid for government projects, in general you get an easier life.
You get this as a Malay because you were the original sons of the land (Bumiputras). The Chinese and the Indians were settlers from far away, and thus although you are now a Malaysian, you pay your dues to the Bumiputras who allowed you to build a home in Malaysia.
Being a Chinese Muslim doesn't make you a Bumiputra either, you have to be a Muslim Malay.
JODONG!!!
YOU ARGUE LIKE CHEEHAN & THE OTHER 2 STOOGES!!
ARRRRGGGGHHH!!!
STOP IT!!!!!!
YOU ARE MERELY LOOKING FOR TECHNICAL FAULTS (E.G. REPRESENTATION) IN AN ARGUMENT!!
I NEBER SAY ALGEBRA AND STUFF NOT IMPORTANT!!
I HAPPEN TO USE CHINESE IN MY BLOG!!!
IF I BLOGGED IN ALGEBRA, I'D REGRET DROPPING F MATHS TOO!!!
AAAARRRRGGGGHHHHH!!!
DUN BE LIKE THEM!!
BEING DOESN'T GET THERE ANYWHERE!!
THEY ARE DESTINED TO BE ALONE!!
btw... i think nobody in the world is chinese anymore. we are all americans.
HAHAHAHHAHAHAH!!!
I always think one's heritage, culture and root are like cycling - you will know how to cycle forever once you pick up the skill, and no matter after how many yrs later, you WILL still know how to cycle, maybe just need abit of time to get used to it again, but definitely take a much shorter time than those who nvr learn the skill b4 trying to pick it up.
Even though now you cannot write as well as b4, but you can still read right? I came from a mandrain speaking environment, I love reading chinese books since young (I still remember I read like 5-7 chinese story books per week during my primary school days) and I'm still reading now at 30ish, but due to the lack of opportunity to practice, I can no longer write as well as before. I'm sure many of you can read chinese but when you are asked to write an article in chinese, you will have a hard time doing so. H/w, this doesn't means we forget our language or who we are. We still teach our younger generation to respect others, be filial to parents, etc, right?
Worst is those who know how to speak mandrain, know how to write but refused to do so or admit so becoz it's "not cool".
You shld be proud of yourself for what you are thinking. :)
in ancinet china, people learn swordfighting and speak manadarin. today u go dempsey road to drink drink
Monkeys! We're all monkeys! Not chinese, indians, blacks, whites, malays, middle-easterns, eskimoes, etc, etc.
"Why can't we all get along?" - Rodney King
What does it mean to be Chinese? I don't know the answer. There are too many different types of Chinese. I'm not Singaporean, but I've easily noticed two extremes in this small isle. On one side, you have the ACS crowd (those who generally are better at English) and on the other, the Hwa Chong crowd (those who are generally better at Mandarin). So let's throw in the ABCs, the BBCs, the Mainlanders, Taiwanese, Hongkies, Thai Chinese, Filipino Chinese, Indo Chinese, and who knows where else Chinese people are "from". There are probably more differences then similarities and so you rarely see the different types mix around much. Let's face it, Chinese people are all very different.
Maybe BM is right. Soon, the only common ground for Chinese is it having an affinity for popular American culture. Is that so bad?
LOL!
BM why so kanchiong all in caps!
i told you already wat that cheehan changed my life. this is but one manifestation of it. heheh.
regret dropping F-maths, regret not having opted to choose another subject... too many regrets! we regret somethings more than others, because they are more important to us mah! What i'm trying to elicit is no matter how conscious or reflexive we are, we do ascribe values to things. And those values affect our choices and our responses. It's not a criticism - it's an observation!
and you ah...you don't realise meh, you oso point out technical faults in arguments lah. still say me! the stooges have rubbed off on you! resistance is futile! muahahahha.
anyway doesn't mean that if we employ same intellectual tools as them, we will become them lah. that's too deterministic! mien giah lah!
"we are all americans." - hahaha fuckin funny!
"we're all monkeys"...dunno why but not so funny leh. Speaking of which, BM take us to da zoo!
"You're either with us or against us." - George W (for Wanker) Bush
Go Americans!
i guess this question of self-perception of identity might actually transcend racial determinants.
as individuals we seek to distinguish ourselves from the somewhat 'homogeneous anonymnity' in a larger group by seeking some sorta of extrapolable link that bands ppl who share the same affinity together which essentially defines this sub-set, lending it its uniqueness within the super-set. (eg hainanese amongst chinese, chinese singaporeans, amongst all singaporeans, all singaporeans, amongst non-singaporeans etc etc).
or it could even be non-cultural factors that band ppl together through a shared self-identity in the face of daunting unfamiliarity (such as perhaps how one hung out with ppl from the same alma mater whom he/she had never talked to before on the first day of JC/poly/uni/army)
therefore there really isn't any form of objective indicator nor yardstick to determine which subset to subscribe ourselves to. it is then simply a matter of which sub-set or self-identiy that we choose to align ourselves with, given different scenarios. self-perceived identity isn't static nor solely ethnocentric as it is grounded on efficacy. the more isolated we feel, the greater the sub-set we're willing to align ourselves with.
in that sense, i would agree with u in saying how race is simply just another categorisation. and to further distinguish oneself as a 'cheena kong' or a 'kantang' is simply just another artificially self-construed perception.
China will be great again!
I prefer to think that I am an alien. A pretty individual. NO mambo jumbo chinese, americanos, whatever. Just me!
:P
Aiyor....why everyone so cheem one...
The original and follow-up post was specifically *only* about Mandarin and speaking it loh. Relak! KNN.
BM: sorry for me bringing in all that stuff about "inner values". :P
i love u blinky!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Fark tub... If u are born in a chinese family, u are a chinese by birth la knn... U can tell god that u want to be born in what kind of family de ah -_-'' U got no choice at all... so what the hell with all this stupid comments now
ALL OF YOU MAKING IRRELEVANT COMMENTS, INCLUDING BM!
LET ME HELP ALL OF YOU OUT HERE WITH THE FOLLOWING "DEFINITIONS"
PROUD: everybody has the right to be proud of their (mixed) heritage, proud of their school, proud of their country, proud of being intelligent, proud of being good at skating etc etc. THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH BEING PROUD OF ONE'S HERITAGE AT ALL!
CHAUVINISM: That's when in addition to "PROUD (see definition above) of X", you also look down on things that are not X. Eg. "I am so proud of my ability to speak English that I look down on all ah bengs who speak broken english". That's chauvinism. A very very common Chauvinism in Singapore.
ENGLISH CHAUVINISM: That's a specific type of Chauvinism unique to Singapore as examplified by the following: "So what if you get all A1 in all your nanyang university courses. Your university teach things in Chinese. So shit! Therefore, serve you right not to be able to find job in Singapore. Singapore is for people like us who are educated in English". "You get 4 A-level grade A? So what? you fucking cheena! You got D7 in GP, ok! Therefore, it is justified to deprive you of a place in university. University are only for people good in English" etc
JUSTIFIED MORAL SUPERIORITY: That's a ****retaliation*** by victims of ENGLISH CHAUVINISM (as defined above). Victims *****retaliate***** with comments along the line of "so what if your english is good. you are a chinese and cannot speak your own language. Shame on you" etc
CHINESE CHAUVINISM: This is JUSTIFIED MORAL SUPERIORITY without the ***retaliation*** part i.e. an unprovoked display of moral superiority without having been first insulted by ENGLISH CHAUVINISM. Note that such CHINESE CHAUVINISM does ****NOT**** exist in Singapore. Any perceived chinese chauvinism in Singapore involves ****retaliation*** and is therefore NOT Chinese Chauvinism, but merely JUSTIFIED MORAL SUPERIORITY per the definition above.
IRRELEVANCE: that's when you suddenly ignore ENGLISH CHAUVINISM. thereby removing the context of ***retaliation*** that is essential in the defintion of JUSTIFIED MORAL SUPERIORITY, turning the vicitm into the CHINESE CHAUVINISM bully, in a ditch to save oneself in an argument.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AND NOW FOR SOME EXAMPLES USING BM's BLOG TO HELP YOU PEOPLE UNDERSTAND THE ABOVE DEFINITIONS.
ENGLISH CHAUVINISM: That's when BM write her "I am not a Chinese Prude" post, where she stereotyped and bashed a certain group of people (whom she defines as "Chinese Prude"). She gave examples to support her bashing and then insult them using the highly derogatory word Cheena, or in hanyu pinyin Zhi1 Na4 (<-- I will not educate anybody here on why this is highly insulting and derogatory. If you dont know, it is your responsibility to find out (if you are interested), not mine. In any case, BM should know and can teach you about it, since her parents are teachers and with such a hugh library, it should not be difficult to find out the word Zhi1 Na4).
JUSTIFIED MORAL SUPERIORITY: That's when some people (but NOT me) commented on her blog by saying that she is shallow or that she is living in a well. Notice the *******retaliation***** that is evident here, which forms an essential part of the definition of MORAL SUPERIORITY (see definition above).
IRRELEVANCE: That's this post of BM. Notice how this post perfectly fulfills the definition of IRRELEVANCE as defined above ----- BM ignores ENGLISH CHAUVINISM (completely ignore the bashing that she did. Make no reference to it at all. Behave as if she has never stereotyped and bashed anybody!), thereby removing the element of ***retaliation*** that is clearly present in many comments, thus turning those anonymous commentators into CHINESE CHAUVINISTS. BM then proceed to chastise these people with "race is merely a categorisation". "language is one thing and inner values are another", "the type of comments... got me worried", and finally she said "做人, 你行吗？你敢吗？" i.e. BM perfectly turning the victim anons into the Chinese Chauvinist bully, thereby completing my above definition of IRRELEVANCE!
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That's a long comment! Ok, to summarise it now that you have read everything:
you stereotype and bash people first wat. So when people (but NOT me) bash you back, why you suddenly think "the type of comments... got me worried". You mean you dont know "the type of comments" is a ***retaliation*** for what you wrote meh? And why start talking cock about "race is a categorisation". That has no relevance to your bashing and the ***retaliation** you received.
Why I like to read your blog? Because I love reading about real life love stories! hahahaha It's like reality TV. I am not the only one, 'cos I believe lots of (new) readers came to this blog from rockson's. Everybody see his link "hot convent girl" and start clicking. Then they go read your "love history" blog because everybody, like me, are interested in real life love stories! Then they start following your blog. No wonder some people find all these argument about Chinese vs English (more) boring. I find it too. Tell us more about this new guy leh! we are waiting! heheeee
What a relevant article on "Chinese Chauvinism" in the newspaper today!
" And there is something that we would very much like to speak up but is afraid to - the fear of being labelled as Chinese chauvinists. Some years back, some of us had expressed unhappiness about the lack of Chinese signs at MRT stations. The authorities had responded then by saying that signs cluttered with words would not be pleasing to the eye. Meanwhile, well-meaning people had cautioned us against getting into trouble over the "sensitive issue" of language. Once bitten, twice shy. It's a lingering fear that refuses to go away."
Lianhe Zaobao Billingual page (the english translation is at the bottom, but the translation is not completely accurate Eg. the "some of us" in the 2nd line above, should have been "seveal senior citizens (who cannot read English)")
各圆其说 自说自话
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